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what i got a native doing the funky

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chicken here he's blocking my blade

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well keep going he'll move

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because people have to learn that we

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don't stop so what's up high tech future

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when jake is separated from the team

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they have to scour the woods to try and

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find him

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tracking isn't that hard even without a

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global network of satellites

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that's a clip from a youtube video i

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found titled

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dumb things in avatar that everyone just

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ignored referencing of course the movie

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avatar one of the top grossing films of

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all time

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and it's a sci-fi film has a lot of

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science stuff

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which gets complicated at some points

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and you have to follow along but then at

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some points it just gets really dumb

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kind of like science in general

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as is so beautifully demonstrated by

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today's guest the esteemed

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parapsychologist

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scientist philosopher dr stephen browdy

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people who are skeptical about psi

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phenomena it's almost as if a veil of

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stupidity descends over them and then

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they start

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going into kind of conceptual panic and

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they panic more i think initially over

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pk than esp

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although esp on the surface seems to

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threaten the idea of mental privacy

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it's very easy to explain why people

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freak out over pk

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if i can move let's say a matchstick

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a millimeter by thought alone it's a

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very small step conceptually from doing

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that to making somebody drop

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dead i tell the story and dangerous

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pursuits about what happened when i

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tried to give a talk on my

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pk investigations to my physics

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department at the university

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of maryland i was invited to do it and i

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thought they wanted me to talk about it

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i was two minutes into the talk and the

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faculty shouted me down i never got to

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give the talk

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers

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and their critics i'm your host alex

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sacaris and today we welcome back

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dr stephen brody to skeptico

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you know i've had the pleasure and

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really honor i mean that

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sincerely of interviewing steve

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several times and as i was just chatting

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with him about a little bit

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i went back and had to look at the

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records because i know it's been a long

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time

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the first one was 10 years ago which

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you know if you're interested in

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parapsychology if you're seriously

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interested in what's called psy but

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really

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interested in science

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which is all i was interested to begin

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with this

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you are going to run across

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stephen brody and uh he has a new book

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out

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dangerous pursuits mediumship

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mind and music which you can pick up for

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just 10 bucks

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on kindle which is the way i got it

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amazing uh compilation kind of capstone

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of a lot of work that he's done

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and uh it's just super great

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to have this guy back super

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smart person just beyond this kind of

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narrowly defined little field we're

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going to talk about of parapsychology

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just somebody who's two things i think

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are really great one you'll recognize

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immediately that he's

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very very very smart about a lot of

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different things

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but two he has this warrior spirit i

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mean this is a guy that has

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kind of battled against the tide

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relentlessly for i don't know

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i'm not going to say how many years but

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uh

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steve welcome back thanks so much for

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joining me

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thanks for having me it's good to see

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you again so

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tell folks uh you know who is

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who is dr stephen browdy

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wow well i started out as

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professionally at least as kind of a

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mainstream

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philosopher i had had an experience back

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in graduate school of seeing my table

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tilt

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in a impromptu seance with a couple of

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friends

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but i was smart enough at the time not

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to talk to my mentors about that i was

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busy

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in those days i thought of myself as a

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kind of hard-nosed materialist

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not for any particularly good reason it

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was just a kind of intellectual conceit

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and i knew nothing about parapsychology

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so i literally put it out of mind until

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i

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are some respectable

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papers in the field of temporal logic

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and the philosophy of time

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got tenure and then i remembered what

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happened to me back in graduate school

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seeing this table rise in the air

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and i figured if i was an honest

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philosopher an intellectual and needed

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to come to grips with that

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and i knew it at by that time that some

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very well-known and great philosophers

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had taken parapsychological research

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seriously so i read what they had to say

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and i decided there was really something

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worth

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sinking my teeth into

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and so i cranked out a book initially on

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the experimental evidence thinking like

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a lot of people that

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if there was good evidence for psi

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phenomena it would come from the

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laboratory

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and then i figured if i was an honest

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intellectual i needed to

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know the rest of the evidence at least

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so i could have a comprehensive

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context in which to place all this and i

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was bowled over by the evidence from

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physical mediumship and what i realized

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at the time

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was that many of the parapsychologists

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not not just the skeptics but

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parapsychologists themselves didn't know

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this evidence

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they were skeptical about it steve real

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quick physical

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uh mediumship tell people what that

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means sure well people are familiar with

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the term mediumship no doubt but there

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are two kinds of mediumship one is

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mental mediumship

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which is what we see most often depicted

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in film and

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tv that's where people ostensibly

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challenge

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channel messages from the deceased

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physical mediumship is where

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mediums ostensibly facilitate or mediate

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the production of physical phenomena

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like materializations

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table levitations wraps in the table and

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so forth

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so it's where they seem to channel pk

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phenomena

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so let me just interject here because uh

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i i like your

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your your grumpiness and your gnarliness

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about uh some of this stuff i really

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appreciate it deeply and i mean that

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sincerely

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you make kind of an interesting point

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slash distinction here

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that is kind of curious you point out

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that

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even people who are uh completely

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uh skeptical and very anti-sci

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parapsychology mediumship they get extra

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uh offended by the idea of physical

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mediumship and i think you challenge

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that in kind of an interesting way it's

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kind of a little subplot

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here but you're like what what are you

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doing i mean you're

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you're you're not accepting one but

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you're somehow showing

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an increased ability to reject the other

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in what logic space are you occupying

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there that that even makes

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any sense right i mean

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for people who are skeptical about psi

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phenomena it's almost as if a veil of

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stupidity descends over them and then

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they start

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going into kind of conceptual panic and

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they panic more i think initially over

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pk than esp although esp

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on the surface seems to threaten the

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idea of mental privacy

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um pk is particularly terrifying and

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the reactions to my talking about pk are

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have been the most extreme i've seen

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and it's very easy to explain why people

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freak out over pk

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if i can move let's say a matchstick

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a millimeter by thought alone it's a

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very small step

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conceptually from doing that to making

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somebody drop dead by thought alone

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so the existence of any kind of pk

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forces us to take seriously a kind of

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magical world view that most of us

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associate

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and usually condescendingly that only

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with so-called primitive cultures

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it's a worldview according to which our

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thoughts unintentional or intentional

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can have malevolent or lethal

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consequences

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and in which we might have to take

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responsibility for a whole range of

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things

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we'd just assume be bystanders for

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and modern science has been trying its

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damnedest to make causation as

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impersonal as possible

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and this is just the exact opposite of

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that so this is a

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world view and people in industrialized

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or developed countries aren't happy

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about this at all

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i mean they're uncomfortable with the

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idea that if you have a malevolent

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thought about somebody even

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just a passing vagrant thought and that

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person has an accident

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that our vagrant thought might have had

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something to do with it

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you know there's a i've made this point

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quite often and

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i apologize if i made it to you there's

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an old yiddish distinction between a

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schlemiel and a schlemazel

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a schlemiel is someone who has soups

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built on him

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and a [\h__\h] is sorry shlamila someone

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who spills soup on himself

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and schlamazel has it's built on him so

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the idea is that a schlemazel is an

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unlucky soul

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a person that the universe is crapping

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on a victim of impersonal forces of the

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universe at large

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and schlamazel's really exist and the

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question is why

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i mean i was married to a schlemazel at

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one point i prefer not to discuss that

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case but

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i lived next door to a couple of

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schlemazels it seemed

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like they were living in consumer hell

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everything they bought was defective

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their cars were in the shop all the time

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even though they had brands noted for

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their reliability

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electronic equipment would fail to work

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right out of the box

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their infant son was placed in a brand

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new rocking

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solid wooden rocking chair which

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collapsed under the infant sun

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and my favorite example of their

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schlemazel-ness if that's even a word

285
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:24,480
the wife bought what she thought was a

286
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:26,399
poster-sized photograph of the golden

287
00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:27,200
gate bridge

288
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:29,200
she had it framed and placed on her

289
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:31,040
living room wall and i had to tell her

290
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:34,240
donna that's the brooklyn bridge so

291
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:36,079
here's a woman who both literally and

292
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:38,480
figuratively bought the brooklyn bridge

293
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:40,320
now most of us are uncomfortable with

294
00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:43,200
the idea that these people this couple i

295
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:44,800
wish i knew if they were slammazo's

296
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:47,760
before they met and got married

297
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:50,399
but is this a kind of expression of

298
00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:51,920
their own self-loathing their own

299
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:53,680
self-hatred or is it something that the

300
00:10:58,150 --> 00:10:55,680
weird philosopher next door to them

301
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:58,160
was inflicting upon them we don't know

302
00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:58,800
that

303
00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:00,800
and there are parts of the world where

304
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:02,560
that kind of thinking is taken for

305
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:03,920
granted

306
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:07,360
but not in developed countries yeah

307
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:08,640
you know i mean one of the problems

308
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:10,720
we're going to have with this whole

309
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:11,680
little chat

310
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:14,959
is idea could

311
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:18,000
spawn an hour's worth of discussion and

312
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:18,720
we could

313
00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:22,320
anthropological kind of

314
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:25,839
look at it because we have serious

315
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:29,279
um deep thinking intellectual people

316
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:31,519
in the west who've done their best to

317
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:32,480
study that

318
00:11:36,069 --> 00:11:34,240
and have come and have come back and

319
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,079
said wow that's real

320
00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:38,880
by all accounts by every way we can

321
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:40,000
measure it

322
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:43,120
uh that is not just a superstitious

323
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:43,920
belief

324
00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:46,480
it happens over and over again but again

325
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:47,760
you know i love that

326
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:50,399
uh what i wrote down the phrase we're

327
00:11:55,269 --> 00:11:52,720
working so hard to make causation

328
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:55,279
impersonal which is really uh the the

329
00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:56,560
idea of materialism

330
00:11:59,590 --> 00:11:57,920
so tablet i'm going to kind of bounce

331
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:59,600
around here i want to talk about

332
00:12:02,629 --> 00:12:00,480
materialism

333
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:02,639
particularly about parapsychology

334
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:03,680
because

335
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:06,240
that is a field that you've been in for

336
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:07,279
a long time

337
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:09,360
and it's a field that's just in shambles

338
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:11,519
it's been decimated it is no more it is

339
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:13,680
not relevant anymore and anyone who says

340
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:14,959
otherwise is just

341
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:17,360
kind of playing pretend but before we

342
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:18,480
get there

343
00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:22,000
tell us about the book this latest book

344
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:25,200
dangerous pursuits mediumship

345
00:12:30,629 --> 00:12:28,399
mind and music which i pulled up here on

346
00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:30,639
amazon but tell us about that well thank

347
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:32,959
you for that opportunity

348
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:35,920
my book before this was crimes of reason

349
00:12:38,629 --> 00:12:36,320
and

350
00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:38,639
when i wrote that it was a collection of

351
00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:40,480
essays that

352
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:42,560
i had written over the years some old

353
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:44,959
some and also some new essays

354
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,480
that i thought i could do a better job

355
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:48,160
on and when i wrote that book

356
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:50,000
i figured i was all booked out and i was

357
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,680
done and then i thought

358
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,279
well there are some other essays that i

359
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:55,200
think if i had a

360
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,720
chance for a do-over i could do a better

361
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,320
job i could state the issues more

362
00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:02,320
clearly or more compellingly

363
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,880
so a lot of these are expanded or

364
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:06,560
otherwise revised

365
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,160
uh essays that i've written before on a

366
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,160
bunch of related themes one would be the

367
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:14,639
fear of sigh

368
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:16,160
the other would be the problems of

369
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:19,279
studying mixed mediums like chime muga

370
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:22,399
or carlos mirabelli and then some

371
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:23,120
problems

372
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:25,680
in explaining why it's difficult to know

373
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:26,880
what the evidence for

374
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:29,680
survival of bodily death is all about

375
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:31,200
and then there's a little dessert

376
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:33,200
chapter on jazz improvisation

377
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:35,519
yeah there's a lot to mine out of the

378
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:37,279
book and uh

379
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:39,600
again you've had such an extensive

380
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:40,480
career and

381
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:42,000
i guess i want to circle back a little

382
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:43,839
bit because

383
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,279
the introduction you are doing is

384
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,040
excellent but as most people

385
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:49,040
who've accomplished a lot do they kind

386
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:50,160
of leave out

387
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:52,399
a lot of important steps along the way

388
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:53,360
because they don't want to sound like

389
00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:55,360
they're braggy or anything

390
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:58,399
but you've kind of seen it all done it

391
00:14:02,069 --> 00:13:58,880
all

392
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:02,079
in the parapsychology community and

393
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:05,120
more broadly in the i don't know

394
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,320
scientific paranormal community i always

395
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,399
reference the journal of scientific

396
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:12,000
exploration because i think they've done

397
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:14,160
a great job for a long time of trying to

398
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:17,440
hold that space you're a editor of the

399
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:18,320
journal for

400
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:20,880
uh how many years were you doing that

401
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,199
since 2009 i think

402
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:26,240
and uh you know i mean that's just that

403
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:28,240
what that means to people who are

404
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:29,519
uninitiated

405
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,120
is that steve is not just comfortable

406
00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:35,519
and super qualified and competent to

407
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,360
talk about all this stuff

408
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:39,600
but like the stuff that crosses his desk

409
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:41,040
is everything

410
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,160
imaginable that he can be

411
00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:46,079
not imagined to be scientific until you

412
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:47,440
look at the data so

413
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:50,800
uh et abduction bigfoot

414
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:53,040
uh what else am i leaving out i mean

415
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:54,399
everything

416
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,880
the astrology you know i interviewed a

417
00:15:02,230 --> 00:14:58,399
woman who published in the

418
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:02,240
jsc that did an extraordinarily uh

419
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:05,360
competent job looking at whether

420
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:08,639
astrology shows an effect so

421
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:12,160
what else runs across your desk

422
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:14,959
there that people should know about oh

423
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:17,199
gee i don't even know how to answer that

424
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:21,199
yeah i'm sorry i literally don't know

425
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:22,880
how to answer that

426
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:26,000
well in general because i think it does

427
00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:28,959
relate to this uh go back to this term i

428
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:29,360
love

429
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,639
uh you know trying to get away from

430
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,560
causation as much as can trying to make

431
00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:36,160
it as impersonal as we can

432
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:40,000
and so okay one of my big targets

433
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:43,440
has been mechanistic explanations

434
00:15:46,629 --> 00:15:45,450
in science um

435
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,639
[Music]

436
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,639
and taking psi phenomena and

437
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:50,399
psychological phenomena

438
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:53,600
as primitive in a sense you know

439
00:16:01,030 --> 00:15:58,399
there's most scientists would agree that

440
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:01,040
explanation by analysis explanation of a

441
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:01,839
phenomenon

442
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:04,399
in terms of lower level processes is

443
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:05,680
something that can't continue

444
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,880
indefinitely

445
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:08,399
that sooner or later you're going to hit

446
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,240
rock bottom you're going to hit some

447
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:12,639
phenomena that are fundamental that are

448
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:13,360
basic or

449
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:16,240
primitive and which at that point you

450
00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:18,160
can no longer profitably ask

451
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:20,320
how they occur that's just the way the

452
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:21,360
universe works

453
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:23,519
and no deeper explanation will explain

454
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:24,720
why

455
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:28,000
now that's fine but what most scientists

456
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:28,880
also

457
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:31,040
assume is that wherever those primitive

458
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:32,639
phenomena occur

459
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:34,320
they're always at the level of the very

460
00:16:40,310 --> 00:16:36,800
small you know the microscopic the

461
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:40,320
subatomic the atomic biochemicals

462
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:41,600
something like that

463
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,560
never at the observable level but that's

464
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,399
just an article of faith that is not an

465
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,240
empirically established fact

466
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,560
and it's a big topic in philosophy where

467
00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:52,639
explanation by analysis comes to an

468
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:55,360
end i happen to believe and have argued

469
00:16:59,110 --> 00:16:56,240
at length

470
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:59,120
for saying that um in the realm of

471
00:17:01,749 --> 00:17:00,320
psychology and

472
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:01,759
by extension in the realm of

473
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:04,959
parapsychology where intention plays in

474
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:11,029
patterns appear first at the level of

475
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,360
behavior at the level of the phenomena

476
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:15,199
that doesn't mean explanation comes to

477
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:16,720
an end it just means that vertical

478
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:17,679
explanation

479
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:31,280
like explaining heat in terms of

480
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:32,720
molecular motion

481
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:36,160
that kind of explanation can cannot help

482
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:37,200
us in the realm of

483
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,400
the mental i always wonder you know

484
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:42,240
that's such a great

485
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:45,679
deconstruction analysis of the problem

486
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:48,080
but i almost feel all sometimes like

487
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,000
you're analyzing it

488
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:52,559
from within the paradigm that you're

489
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,360
forced to

490
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,360
operate in you know because like your

491
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:57,200
philosopher i mean if you take the

492
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,760
take an idealism kind of viewpoint and

493
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:01,679
say consciousness is somehow fundamental

494
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:02,080
and

495
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,160
that's where the evidence really leads

496
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:06,160
from the beginning from the double slit

497
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:06,880
experiment

498
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:09,120
on and really before that you know

499
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:10,799
consciousness is fundamental everything

500
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:11,679
is

501
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:15,840
of consciousness not saying that's true

502
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:16,720
but i'm just saying

503
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:19,120
from that perspective i'm not even sure

504
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:19,919
we'd

505
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,960
talk about things in that way

506
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:24,960
well there's a reason i i do it the way

507
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:27,360
i do i mean i'm in a kind of

508
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:30,080
privileged position because i had a good

509
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,600
reputation in philosophy

510
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:33,440
before i got into parapsychology and

511
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:38,630
and you know there were people at the

512
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,640
time who were saying things to me a

513
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:42,720
famous logician once said to me if

514
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:44,400
somebody has to do this i'm glad it's

515
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:45,200
you

516
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:55,990
so because i have the status that i had

517
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,559
in the academic community before i was

518
00:19:01,830 --> 00:19:00,240
corrupted

519
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:01,840
people are at least willing to listen to

520
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:03,440
me and because i think i argue very

521
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:06,880
convincingly for some things

522
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:10,480
i hope to shake certain mainstream

523
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:12,080
academics out of their mainstream

524
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:13,679
academic complacency

525
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:18,710
plant seeds of doubt in their mind about

526
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:20,160
the way they've been doing things

527
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:21,919
that softens them up for getting out of

528
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,240
that way of thinking

529
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:27,200
and so that's the path that i think i've

530
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:28,480
been particularly

531
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,919
um well qualified to follow yes

532
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:33,679
and and i love your story you know are

533
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:35,840
you uh are they

534
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,080
like they say about the pioneers yeah

535
00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:40,559
you can always tell the pioneers because

536
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,760
they don't just have arrows in their

537
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,960
front side

538
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,120
they have arrows on your backside as

539
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:49,520
well you know

540
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:52,160
so you know a few years ago i had an

541
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,039
opportunity to

542
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:55,200
actually just had an email exchange with

543
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:56,400
uh the

544
00:20:02,149 --> 00:19:59,520
well-known atheist sam harris

545
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:02,159
who isn't known as being particularly

546
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:03,039
deep thinker

547
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:06,320
or or constructing very good

548
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,960
solid logical arguments at least in my

549
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:10,799
opinion it all kind of falls away pretty

550
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:11,440
quickly

551
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:14,880
but i was always struck by his very

552
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:18,640
matter-of-fact in-your-face

553
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:21,919
assessment of parapsychology and psy

554
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:23,919
and he said it's in the backwater of

555
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:26,799
science and that was a few years ago

556
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,159
and as much as i you know

557
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:32,799
don't think much of him intellectually

558
00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:34,080
he's spot on

559
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:37,280
it's it's it's always been the backwater

560
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:38,480
of science

561
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:41,600
and in the years since we've spoken it's

562
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,799
just worse

563
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:45,120
objectively if you measure how many the

564
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:47,679
search results you get it's prominence

565
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:50,000
it's a published peer-reviewed papers

566
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:51,840
the the phd's

567
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:54,799
there are none you know and it's sure

568
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:55,520
it's true

569
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,120
i mean there's it's but one of the

570
00:21:03,350 --> 00:20:59,600
here's 150 years it's been true

571
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:03,360
well but it's especially true lately

572
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,080
as because here's the point i guess that

573
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:07,440
i was going to make is that

574
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,480
the the really the best evidence has

575
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,480
continued to pile up

576
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:14,320
you know it's not like there's a few

577
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:16,080
pioneer researchers out there like

578
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:18,799
you and others who complete continue to

579
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:19,760
put out more

580
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:23,039
and better solid science that just

581
00:21:29,669 --> 00:21:26,400
gets you know further pushed repressed

582
00:21:32,789 --> 00:21:29,679
suppressed and i wonder

583
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,799
if there isn't more to that i definitely

584
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:34,159
think there's more to it

585
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:35,919
i think well there are a couple things

586
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,840
one is that most of the people doing sci

587
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:40,000
research don't have tenure

588
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:43,039
so they don't have the delicious

589
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:44,320
protection that

590
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:47,360
tenure can afford and

591
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:50,720
the other thing is a lot of the people

592
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:52,960
who are doing studies in parapsychology

593
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:53,520
now

594
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,880
are still just following conventional

595
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:59,280
laboratory protocols they haven't

596
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,120
learned some important lessons and i've

597
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:03,120
been arguing for decades now

598
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:04,480
that laboratory research in

599
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:06,559
parapsychology is almost absurdly

600
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:07,600
premature

601
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:08,960
because we don't know what the natural

602
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:11,039
history of psy is we don't know exactly

603
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:12,640
what it's doing out in the world

604
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:16,000
and until we have a firm grip on that

605
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:17,520
we have no idea what it is we're taking

606
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:19,280
into the lab it might be as

607
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:21,440
inappropriate to study it in the lab as

608
00:22:24,789 --> 00:22:22,640
it will be to study

609
00:22:25,669 --> 00:22:24,799
courage or sensuality under laboratory

610
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:25,679
conditions

611
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:26,559
you're only going to get

612
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:28,799
straightjacketed manifestations of

613
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:31,039
at best you're only going to get that in

614
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,480
the laboratory

615
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,480
you know that's a really interesting

616
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:36,559
point but i'm not even going to go there

617
00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:37,679
for a minute i'm going to

618
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:39,039
take it in a couple of different

619
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:40,159
directions because this is where my

620
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:41,200
journey is going

621
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,400
so first question is invisible college

622
00:22:50,029 --> 00:22:47,039
does there exist a quote-unquote

623
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:50,039
invisible college when it comes to

624
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:52,799
parapsychology extended consciousness

625
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:53,520
and this

626
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:56,720
all these phenomena in general i think

627
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,159
there is what do you use i'm not sure

628
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,240
what you mean by invisible cause well

629
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:03,280
you know i recently interviewed uh

630
00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:06,480
dr diana walsh pasulka who wrote a book

631
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:08,320
called american cosmic

632
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:12,240
and her work she's in religious studies

633
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:15,440
she's doing these work on

634
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:18,159
like saints and uh in the catholic

635
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,960
tradition

636
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:20,320
and some of the accounts and stuff like

637
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:22,000
that and one of her colleagues reads one

638
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:22,960
of those and goes

639
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:25,440
that's a ufo story and she's like what

640
00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:27,440
do you mean no it's it's an account of

641
00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:28,880
someone back

642
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:31,520
300 years ago who had this so next thing

643
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:32,240
you know

644
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,720
she's in maryland at a ufo conference

645
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:38,480
and she meets a gentleman named chris

646
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:39,760
bledsoe who

647
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:43,279
is pretty amazing in terms of the

648
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,880
contact experiences he's had and he's

649
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:49,120
been kind of well documented he's had

650
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:51,039
these experiences not just himself

651
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:53,600
but with others both in his family and

652
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:54,720
others

653
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,320
not related to him manifesting different

654
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,240
phenomena and you know all this kind of

655
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,120
stuff so she gets really interested now

656
00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:06,000
and she goes to a conference in silicon

657
00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:07,039
valley and meets

658
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:10,159
jacques valley and he kind of tours her

659
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:11,520
around silicon valley which is like a

660
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:12,480
dream come true

661
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:16,080
for her she goes to the desert in in

662
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:18,799
nevada and finds this guy who actually

663
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:20,240
reverse engineers space

664
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:23,200
junk that he finds through this means of

665
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,080
kind of this

666
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:26,400
metal detector that he's rigged up and

667
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:27,360
again this is uh

668
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:29,600
you know dr tayana was pasoka she's got

669
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:31,200
all the credentials and she hasn't given

670
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:32,880
up any of those credentials she's a

671
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:33,440
sharp

672
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:36,480
person she's not a wing nut here but as

673
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:37,360
part of

674
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,120
her book what she reveals is this

675
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:43,440
hidden college invisible college and

676
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,799
jacques villa i think is

677
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:47,440
responsible for if not coining the term

678
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:49,360
kind of popularizing it

679
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:50,880
and she says a matter of fact she's at a

680
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:52,720
conference when

681
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,440
somebody stands up and says make some

682
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:57,120
kind of question or something like that

683
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:58,559
and another person across the room says

684
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:59,120
hey

685
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:01,279
we're not supposed to talk about that

686
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,960
that's not you know allowed

687
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,559
and one of her colleagues who she

688
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,400
directly knows is brought

689
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:08,159
into the invisible college he receives a

690
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:10,080
note he says okay kind of a fight club

691
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,840
thing the first rule of fight club is we

692
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:13,200
don't talk about fight club

693
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:15,679
but he becomes an insider and this has

694
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:16,320
to do with

695
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:19,360
uh you know basically et kind of stuff

696
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,559
but i think the same is true in in

697
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:24,480
parapsychology in the sense the point i

698
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:24,960
always

699
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,679
point out is you know the mk ultra

700
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:29,120
project which a lot of people don't

701
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:30,559
realize it's mk ultra

702
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:33,200
but stargate the remote viewing project

703
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,559
you know if you go read

704
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,480
if you go an interview i read um

705
00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:37,679
interviewed

706
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:40,880
joe mcmonicle secret spy

707
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,760
number zero zero zero remote viewer

708
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:46,080
looking at russian submarines

709
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:49,200
when he shows up and he meets russell

710
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:50,080
targe and hal

711
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:53,360
put off they are not

712
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:55,520
they're not trying to hammer out whether

713
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:56,720
materialism

714
00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:59,760
exists whether there is an extended

715
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:02,320
i mean they are so this is the 70s they

716
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:02,880
are so

717
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:05,520
far past that i mean they're light years

718
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:11,909
i'm not sure what you want me to respond

719
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,039
to that i mean well

720
00:26:16,549 --> 00:26:14,799
yes i guess original question is

721
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:16,559
invisible college do you believe there

722
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:18,080
is such a thing

723
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:20,080
well there are certainly there's a

724
00:26:26,070 --> 00:26:22,000
network of people who

725
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:26,080
um already have a fairly well-defined

726
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,320
set of assumptions and

727
00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:32,720
intellectual projects and questions that

728
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:34,320
they're addressing

729
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:36,559
and sure there's there's a subset of

730
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:37,520
people

731
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:38,640
more or less officially in

732
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:40,799
parapsychology or who have been over the

733
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:41,520
past

734
00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:49,110
and there are projects they work on

735
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,480
between them

736
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,240
if that's what you have in mind and of

737
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:53,679
course they're they're not

738
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:57,279
bound by the uh constraints of

739
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:00,640
uh university life and

740
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:03,360
university life has become increasingly

741
00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:03,840
uh

742
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:10,630
unsavory in fact i would say okay

743
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,799
and you might not agree with this at all

744
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:14,400
which is kind of fine

745
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,880
but um i think we're talking about

746
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,240
something different here

747
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:20,159
we're talking about how put off and

748
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:22,080
russell targ and their

749
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,679
you know anyone i always remind people

750
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:25,760
you can go watch

751
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,960
videos of them testing quote unquote

752
00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:30,799
uri geller right and they're testing

753
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:32,799
them at stanford research institute

754
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:36,080
and he's exhibiting incredible

755
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:38,720
esp powers or whatever you want to call

756
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:39,440
it psi

757
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:42,880
abilities so the point being

758
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,799
that this is all denied right these guys

759
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:46,640
are doing this in the 70s

760
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,360
and ted koppel's doing nightline news

761
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:51,600
reports but in general

762
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:54,000
the response was that isn't happening

763
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:55,440
that isn't real

764
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:58,320
that couldn't possibly be true and i

765
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,000
don't think that's

766
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,480
accidental i think that's again i think

767
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,559
the parallels to the ufo community

768
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:06,960
i think there's disinformation there's

769
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,840
co-opting

770
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:10,080
there's you know criticizing and there's

771
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:11,760
controlling the thing

772
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:15,120
but there's obviously people in our

773
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,039
government who are interested in that

774
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,440
who are pursuing it in a way that

775
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,640
is in direct contradiction to

776
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:25,120
what is being reported by academia

777
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:27,039
whether they know it or not

778
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:29,039
yes and i don't know why it's being

779
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,240
suppressed at the

780
00:28:34,389 --> 00:28:32,880
federal level if assuming that it is i

781
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:34,399
think the reasons may be a bit different

782
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:34,880
for

783
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:39,200
lot of people would argue that

784
00:28:46,029 --> 00:28:43,039
um if word gets out about

785
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:46,039
having been visited or in contact with

786
00:28:48,950 --> 00:28:47,279
extraterrestrials

787
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:48,960
that the public just wouldn't be able to

788
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:50,799
handle it i don't think

789
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:53,679
that information about psi phenomena is

790
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,960
being withheld because the public

791
00:28:57,750 --> 00:28:56,000
couldn't handle it

792
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:57,760
because it's been out there in the

793
00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:59,840
public for a long time

794
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,840
and maybe we ought to just move off that

795
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,600
but you know i won't move off of that

796
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:05,760
completely because i'll show you another

797
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:07,679
interview that i did that i thought was

798
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:09,200
really

799
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:16,320
pissed off but uh ed may

800
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:19,679
who was uh the head of the stargate

801
00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:21,840
program for 10 years

802
00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:25,360
and very very anti uh in my interview

803
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:27,960
with them anti-parapsychology

804
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:30,960
anti-uh it being anything

805
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:34,399
other than materialistic science and

806
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:36,080
one of the most curious things about

807
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:37,520
that interview for me

808
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:40,640
is he wanted to correct me about the

809
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:42,799
experience of joe mcmonacle

810
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:45,919
and i had to say ed what are you talking

811
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,919
about i have the transcript of the

812
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:49,520
interview the guy gave me

813
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:51,520
it was connected to his near-death

814
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,600
experience that's what he was told

815
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,919
his secret personnel file they pulled

816
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:57,279
the raymond moody book out of there and

817
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:58,559
he was just like

818
00:30:01,669 --> 00:30:00,960
doesn't couldn't have anything to do

819
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:01,679
with

820
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:04,399
uh near-death experience or anything

821
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,240
quote-unquote spiritual

822
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,600
this is all just solid materialistic

823
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:11,520
science and we'll get to the bottom of

824
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:12,559
it

825
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:15,840
again the optics to me i don't know

826
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:18,320
but he just seems like a a cut out

827
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:18,960
figure

828
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:21,919
he doesn't seem like he's a genuine

829
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,120
curious

830
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:25,360
intellect he seems like a guy who's

831
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,480
doing a job and his job is to

832
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:30,480
kind of bury this stuff otherwise

833
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:32,000
there's it stands in direct

834
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:34,000
contradiction to everything that we now

835
00:30:37,750 --> 00:30:34,480
know

836
00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:37,760
of what was going on inside that program

837
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:40,000
i'm afraid i have to agree with you

838
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:41,600
about it i mean i've known him for

839
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:42,960
decades

840
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:47,120
and he's been a big disappointment to me

841
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,279
i've tried he denies the existence of

842
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:51,440
any pk despite

843
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:53,919
the overwhelming evidence and i've asked

844
00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:56,960
him at least to respond to my arguments

845
00:31:00,870 --> 00:30:58,799
and tell me what's wrong with them and

846
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,880
he's steadfastly refused to do that he

847
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,640
said fastly refused to look at the

848
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,159
evidence that i've presented

849
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,159
the arguments that i've presented he

850
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:07,840
just flatly denies it

851
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:10,399
and trots out the usual skeptical thing

852
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:11,200
it's all

853
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:14,640
hocus pocus or it's mal observation and

854
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:15,840
so on

855
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,919
so here's my question steve and i poked

856
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,519
it poked you with it enough so then i'll

857
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,120
leave it alone is

858
00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:23,279
what if he's just doing his job what if

859
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:25,600
that's what if that is really his

860
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,640
job whether he's uh in

861
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,399
whether he's instructed to do that kind

862
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:32,080
of directly in a smoky dark room in the

863
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:32,640
back

864
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:34,240
or whether it's the useful idiot thing

865
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,320
where you just find somebody who's

866
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,559
messaging what you want and you continue

867
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:40,559
to feed the beast i mean there's no

868
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:41,360
other way i

869
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,120
i think it's the former because there's

870
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:45,440
no other way to explain how this guy

871
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:47,200
winds up running the stargate

872
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:48,799
programming how would that

873
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:52,960
be the most illogical kind of

874
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:55,440
ineffective way to kind of run that

875
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:57,200
program unless you didn't really want to

876
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:59,760
get results

877
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:01,519
i can't speculate about that i mean it

878
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:03,279
may just be the fear of psy and i've

879
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,320
seen it

880
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:06,080
demonstrated very dramatically with

881
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,440
physicists

882
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:09,840
i tell the story and dangerous pursuits

883
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:11,360
about what happened when i tried to give

884
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:12,320
a talk on my

885
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,120
pk investigations to my physics

886
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:17,200
department at the university of maryland

887
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:18,720
i was invited to do it and i thought

888
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,320
they wanted me to talk about it

889
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:22,000
i was two minutes into the talk and the

890
00:32:26,149 --> 00:32:24,000
faculty shouted me down i never got to

891
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:26,159
give the talk

892
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:27,919
and they were trotting out the usual

893
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:30,399
[\h__\h] yeah what do you mean they shouted

894
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:31,760
you down

895
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,919
well they started shaking and standing

896
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:35,600
up and saying well randy has shown that

897
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:36,559
it's all

898
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:40,320
nonsense uh or they were just say

899
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,720
there's no evidence there's no evidence

900
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,399
and i said well i can present the

901
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,080
evidence and they didn't want to hear it

902
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:49,200
i think this is so relevant to

903
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:52,960
where we're at now in uh culturally

904
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:55,760
i feel like we're we're rapidly moving

905
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:56,159
to

906
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:59,600
kind of a post-scientific world if we

907
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:01,120
haven't already been there

908
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,240
where you know science as we understand

909
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:06,640
it as you understand it as you

910
00:33:10,149 --> 00:33:09,519
said you know you described yourself as

911
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:10,159
a

912
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:24,240
where it's now science is by

913
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:27,519
edict science is by

914
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:30,559
uh fake science of if i can fool you if

915
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:33,120
i can convince you

916
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:34,960
any thoughts on that i know it's a broad

917
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,440
question well science today is so

918
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:39,919
connected with money

919
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:42,240
that it's hard to separate the good

920
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:45,360
science from the science that's

921
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:48,080
predestined by the people who are

922
00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:49,440
funding it

923
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:51,519
and i mean there's still a lot of pure

924
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:52,880
science going on

925
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,279
i wouldn't want to reject the entire

926
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:57,600
body of modern science because it's

927
00:34:02,070 --> 00:33:59,919
been abused anything can be used that

928
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:02,080
can be used for the good can be used for

929
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,000
the bad as well fair enough

930
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:08,560
you know you were nice enough steve to

931
00:34:10,869 --> 00:34:10,000
kind of play along with the little

932
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:10,879
survey

933
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,159
that i sent you now you you kind of

934
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,520
blocked at some of them

935
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,240
in for ways that i totally respect

936
00:34:23,149 --> 00:34:19,839
you're not

937
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:23,159
very tolerant of the kind of

938
00:34:29,869 --> 00:34:26,480
pigeonholing cut it down to a

939
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:29,879
twitter tweet to sum up deep

940
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:35,109
i'm not scientific sound bite guy you're

941
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:36,560
not a soundbite guy

942
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:38,320
okay good i love it that's that was a

943
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:44,710
but you know one that you did answer

944
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:47,679
that i think is the fundamental question

945
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:50,079
in a way and that's is there a moral

946
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,040
imperative

947
00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:53,280
first we i always got to remind people

948
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,399
is you know we live

949
00:34:57,910 --> 00:34:57,200
in a scientific world that insists that

950
00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:57,920
consciousness

951
00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,839
is an illusion that you are a biological

952
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:02,000
robot in a meaningless universe

953
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:05,680
ensure we have some nice

954
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:08,240
well well-groomed dissenters like the

955
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:10,320
one you're seeing in this interview

956
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:12,560
but they do have to report to their

957
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:14,400
bosses who will tell them

958
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,560
ultimately like they did when they

959
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:18,000
shouted you down that

960
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:20,400
never mind consciousness is an illusion

961
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:22,480
and there can't possibly be meaning

962
00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:25,920
so in my little survey you answered yes

963
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:28,480
to there is a moral imperative yes there

964
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,520
is good and

965
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:32,240
evil do you want to explain that are you

966
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,400
sure you mean that do you really think

967
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:36,560
there is a moral imperative there's good

968
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,359
and evil i won't pretend to have worked

969
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,680
this out in the detail that

970
00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:43,760
i've worked out some of my positions in

971
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,960
philosophy but

972
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,119
if i had to be pushed right now i'd say

973
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:49,440
i'm a kind of moral intuitionist

974
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:53,440
and that if you get people to agree on

975
00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:55,599
what the facts are

976
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,119
more often than not you'll get them to

977
00:36:02,870 --> 00:35:59,280
agree on what's right and what's wrong

978
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:02,880
let's suppose there's a culture in which

979
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:05,040
people think that bearing the elderly

980
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:06,400
alive

981
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:09,599
leads them to a healthier

982
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:12,720
and more profitable afterlife and so

983
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:14,320
they think it's okay to bury people

984
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,119
while they're alive

985
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,960
those of us who think that it's not okay

986
00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:20,400
to bury people

987
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:21,839
while they're alive because there's no

988
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:24,960
connection to an afterlife

989
00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:27,599
would disagree with that but if you

990
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,200
could get them to agree on

991
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:31,440
the relationship whether there is an

992
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,880
afterlife first of all

993
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:34,240
and secondly whether there's any

994
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:36,480
connection between the quality of one's

995
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:37,280
afterlife

996
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,480
and the condition in which they're

997
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:40,320
buried probably

998
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,359
they would agree to

999
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,760
whether or not it's the best thing to do

1000
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:47,920
to bury someone while alive

1001
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,640
so you get people to agree on the facts

1002
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:52,480
and you'll get them to agree more often

1003
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:53,200
than not

1004
00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:55,599
on what's right and what's wrong that's

1005
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:56,960
a more extreme

1006
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,920
example but i think it makes a point the

1007
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:01,599
other way i'd approach it and i'd like

1008
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:02,720
to hear your

1009
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:05,359
idea on that is as we collect more and

1010
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:06,400
more evidence

1011
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,440
about consciousness about

1012
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:11,040
mediumship and again your evidence

1013
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:12,560
doesn't come down

1014
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:14,560
you don't read the evidence on

1015
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:16,720
mediumship the same way that i do

1016
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:19,520
which is fine you mean mental mediumship

1017
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:20,560
mental mediumship

1018
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:24,560
but overwhelmingly the evidence suggests

1019
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:27,440
that there is a hierarchy to

1020
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:29,280
consciousness i think or a perceived

1021
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:30,960
hierarchy which is all we can really go

1022
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:32,079
on is perception

1023
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:34,000
is that they're a perceived hierarchy

1024
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:35,359
particularly if you take the near-death

1025
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:37,599
experience science that is compiled the

1026
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,200
best that they can i mean it has

1027
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:41,280
limitations in what they can do but

1028
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,599
you know we trust asking people whether

1029
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,599
or not they feel depressed

1030
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:47,920
and then after a certain therapy whether

1031
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:49,520
they still feel depre

1032
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,079
depressed so i think we're kind of

1033
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:54,640
within the realm of science to ask

1034
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:57,359
people what they experienced before and

1035
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:59,040
what they experienced now what are their

1036
00:38:01,829 --> 00:37:59,760
beliefs

1037
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:01,839
what are their feelings about god you

1038
00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:03,760
know hierarchy of consciousness

1039
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:06,079
and the the the data that we get back is

1040
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:07,839
overwhelmingly that people that have

1041
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,280
this particular kind of

1042
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:11,760
experience during a time when

1043
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:12,480
consciousness

1044
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:14,480
is not supposed to be available in their

1045
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:15,760
brain state

1046
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:17,200
they have an understanding of a

1047
00:38:23,829 --> 00:38:20,320
relationship with

1048
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:23,839
a hierarchical consciousness as evidence

1049
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,160
for

1050
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,000
survival of bodily death i don't

1051
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,320
consider the near-death experience

1052
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,480
to be particularly helpful i think

1053
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:32,560
they're much more persuasive

1054
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:36,160
kinds of cases which and even those i'd

1055
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:36,560
say

1056
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:38,880
it's hard to know how to interpret and

1057
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,640
particularly whether we need to explain

1058
00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:42,000
them in terms of

1059
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:45,280
psychic functioning among the living or

1060
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:47,920
some kind of post-mortem existence and

1061
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:49,359
even then

1062
00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:51,040
the most we get from the evidence for

1063
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:53,599
survival is not the conclusion that

1064
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:55,440
everybody survives the most we could

1065
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:56,800
ever conclude would be that

1066
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:59,760
some people survive and even then only

1067
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,000
for

1068
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:02,480
a limited time we don't have evidence

1069
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,240
that everybody survives much less that

1070
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:06,000
they survive forever

1071
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:07,520
we could spend a lot of time going down

1072
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:09,680
that road i'm interested

1073
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,320
in your comments and what i said in

1074
00:39:18,310 --> 00:39:14,079
terms of

1075
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:18,320
what that data set suggests regarding

1076
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,119
this moral imperative it seems to also

1077
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:22,880
be in line with what we find

1078
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:27,040
with entheogens what we find with

1079
00:39:31,829 --> 00:39:30,160
out of body experience i mean these

1080
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,839
people are coming back and saying yeah

1081
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:33,599
there is good there is right or wrong

1082
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:34,000
and

1083
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,760
the intuitive sense you have of what it

1084
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:37,680
is is is reliable

1085
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,760
it's a transformative experience and

1086
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,359
without doubt for most people

1087
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,640
for some people it's still a bad

1088
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:44,400
experience you know there are people who

1089
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:45,280
in nds

1090
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:47,280
confront the devil

1091
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:50,240
[Music]

1092
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:53,599
but religious experiences generally

1093
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:56,320
are transformative in a similar kind of

1094
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:57,200
way

1095
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:02,240
and lead people to various ideas about

1096
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:05,839
the basic ethical imperatives

1097
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:07,839
from different perspectives you know the

1098
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:09,440
great religions

1099
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:11,839
tend to converge on certain general

1100
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:13,280
ideas about what's right and what's

1101
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,160
wrong

1102
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,800
there are exceptions granted yeah but i

1103
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,240
don't really care what the

1104
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:20,560
religions converge on i'm not religious

1105
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:21,839
and i'm not christian and

1106
00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:25,040
i i don't care what i care is some sort

1107
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:25,359
of

1108
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:28,800
independent data set on that and

1109
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:31,040
again i'm not really interested in the

1110
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:32,880
ethical part you know because

1111
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:36,000
hey you talk to any any of these half

1112
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:36,480
wit

1113
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:40,240
you know uh sam harris atheist types and

1114
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:40,880
they'll give you

1115
00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:43,359
you know it's a social construct right

1116
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:45,119
i'm reluctant to comment on that because

1117
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:45,680
i don't

1118
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,680
feel i have a sufficiently well worked

1119
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,200
out position so

1120
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:52,000
i don't give half-assed answers to uh

1121
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:53,440
deep questions

1122
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:56,400
not gonna do that i'm sorry don't you

1123
00:41:01,750 --> 00:40:57,680
don't be sorry

1124
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:01,760
but it is it's the it's the space we're

1125
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:02,079
in

1126
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:04,240
everyone has a position on that isn't

1127
00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:07,359
everyone's position half-assed

1128
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:10,960
well probably so but i don't like to go

1129
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,800
on record with my half-assed positions

1130
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:14,240
it's too easy to uh

1131
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:16,960
uh so what what positions do you have

1132
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,560
that aren't half-assed what do you know

1133
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,960
for the ones i write about

1134
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:22,480
doesn't the moral imperative question

1135
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,040
make everything look half-assed

1136
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,680
well i've given you i've given you a

1137
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:29,440
kind of answer to that i mean i told you

1138
00:41:33,910 --> 00:41:30,720
i believe

1139
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,920
i'm an ethical uh intuitionist i think

1140
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:35,680
that uh

1141
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,319
most people have the same kinds of

1142
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:40,000
intuitions about what's right and what's

1143
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,560
wrong

1144
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,720
what they are likely to disagree about

1145
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:44,160
is what the facts are

1146
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:46,480
you get them to agree about the facts

1147
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:47,520
you'll find that their

1148
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:50,880
intuitions tend to converge yeah so

1149
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:53,200
i'll leave it go i'm just always curious

1150
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,640
when people

1151
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:56,400
you know are really excited about one

1152
00:42:01,750 --> 00:41:57,680
data set and

1153
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:01,760
feel completely you know annoyed or not

1154
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:04,079
annoyed with a another data set but you

1155
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,760
live in a different in a different world

1156
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:07,440
in terms of like i said you're the front

1157
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:09,760
line soldier so i respect what

1158
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:11,359
you've had to go through and you got i'm

1159
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:15,200
not annoyed by the other data set i just

1160
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:18,160
i i like to be cautious about putting

1161
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:19,280
myself forward

1162
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:25,750
i don't think your work reflects

1163
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:28,800
that i don't

1164
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:31,920
cautious i don't think you're cautious

1165
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:34,560
in that in that way i think you're

1166
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:36,319
you're kind of the opposite of cautious

1167
00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:39,359
and even your point about aggressive yes

1168
00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:40,960
you're extremely aggressive

1169
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:43,280
and you you make some great points like

1170
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,720
your point about the laboratory work

1171
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,359
which we can just kind of uh

1172
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,960
we we kind of breezed past but i think

1173
00:42:53,109 --> 00:42:50,720
it's an incredibly

1174
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:53,119
significant insight you have there is

1175
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:53,760
that

1176
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:57,280
uh the science types even in these

1177
00:43:00,950 --> 00:43:00,079
fringe areas if you will frontier errors

1178
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:00,960
if you will

1179
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:08,150
as you said a unexplainable

1180
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:11,359
leaning on the lab when

1181
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:14,720
that doesn't really make a lot of sense

1182
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:17,119
if we haven't first identified what we

1183
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:18,160
think are the

1184
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:19,680
what we would bring into the lab what

1185
00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:21,359
we're what we're even controlling

1186
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:23,760
the skeptic cem hansel was interviewed

1187
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:24,640
for that

1188
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:27,839
nova program decades ago and

1189
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,160
he said it's easy to tell if telepathy

1190
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,319
is real just tell me what i'm thinking

1191
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:34,960
and i'm very sorry that his interlocutor

1192
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:35,920
didn't say to him

1193
00:43:39,850 --> 00:43:37,680
oh is that right professor hansel well

1194
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,860
let's see an erection

1195
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:41,040
[Laughter]

1196
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,800
i'm sure hansel would not have agreed

1197
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,800
that he's simply incapable of getting it

1198
00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:46,560
up

1199
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:49,599
love it let me uh

1200
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:51,920
kind of switch gears a little bit

1201
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,640
another topic i'm super interested in

1202
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,480
we're going to be i hope people can read

1203
00:44:01,510 --> 00:43:58,480
through this that

1204
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:01,520
i so respect again i'll say the the work

1205
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:02,800
that you've done

1206
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:05,040
the tremendous contribution you've made

1207
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:06,800
to science

1208
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:09,599
i think it's almost like a disservice to

1209
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:10,480
say

1210
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:13,200
the field of parapsychology geez if

1211
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:14,880
anything this discussion

1212
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:18,880
should let people understand that

1213
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:22,000
the intellectual community as a whole

1214
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:26,480
and science in particular is

1215
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:30,079
it indebted to the the brave work that

1216
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:31,040
you've done

1217
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:32,960
of being shouted off this stage and

1218
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:34,800
considered continuing to

1219
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:37,599
persist continuing to be aggressive

1220
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:38,880
continuing to

1221
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:42,000
not be bullied cajoled or

1222
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:44,000
co-opted into saying anything that

1223
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:46,400
anybody wants you to say so i i i

1224
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:47,520
respect that

1225
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:49,839
well flattery will get you everywhere

1226
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:50,800
excellent

1227
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:52,240
that will work then because i want to

1228
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:55,119
talk about chapter 11

1229
00:45:02,069 --> 00:44:58,640
multiple personality and the structure

1230
00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:02,079
of self tell us

1231
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:03,520
where you're at what you think what

1232
00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:06,079
you've discovered

1233
00:45:09,109 --> 00:45:08,079
well i wrote a book about multiple

1234
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:09,119
personality

1235
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:11,280
initially because well for two reasons

1236
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:13,359
one it's just interesting as hell

1237
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:15,760
and secondly i knew i wanted to write a

1238
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,520
book on survival of death

1239
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:19,440
especially when i was more

1240
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:21,520
chronologically challenged

1241
00:45:27,270 --> 00:45:25,119
and i knew also that the phenomenon of

1242
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:27,280
multiple personality looks suspiciously

1243
00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:28,400
like the phenomenon

1244
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:31,359
of mental mediumship and it's not that i

1245
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:32,079
thought that they were

1246
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,079
the same but i felt it would be

1247
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:36,400
intellectually irresponsible to

1248
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:38,079
write about survival without having a

1249
00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:40,240
firm grasp of the history of hypnosis

1250
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:40,640
and

1251
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:44,640
in particular

1252
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:47,119
and i was astounded and dismayed to

1253
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:48,800
discover that a lot of the people riding

1254
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:49,760
on survival

1255
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:52,400
hadn't a clue about multiple personality

1256
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:52,960
so

1257
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,560
my work on that has been to try to

1258
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:56,000
explain in what respect

1259
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:58,160
alter identities are different from one

1260
00:46:02,390 --> 00:45:59,119
another

1261
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:02,400
and the kinds of inferences we can draw

1262
00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,760
about the nature of the self and the big

1263
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,520
point that i was arguing for in my book

1264
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:09,760
first person plural was that

1265
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:12,880
even though these distinctions between

1266
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:13,520
the altar

1267
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:16,240
identities are quite profound there's an

1268
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:17,359
even deeper kind of

1269
00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:19,839
underlying unity of consciousness okay

1270
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:20,560
great so

1271
00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:22,960
we're going to talk about that

1272
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:24,720
forewarned like we just said

1273
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:26,240
i may not come down the same way that

1274
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:28,319
you did just interviewed a guy i really

1275
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:30,319
respect a lot have you ever encountered

1276
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:34,160
dr bernardo castro well i know who he is

1277
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:37,680
okay um have you ever spoken with him or

1278
00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:40,960
read his okay so uh bernardo

1279
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:43,119
for people who don't know is a phd in

1280
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:44,720
philosophy but also

1281
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:48,000
phd in computer science and has been

1282
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:50,000
kind of one of the leading intellectuals

1283
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:51,200
pushing

1284
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:54,880
idealism and really as a kind of direct

1285
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:56,720
contradiction to

1286
00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:59,359
wacky materialism he's kind of willing

1287
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:01,040
to be pretty out there in your face

1288
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,359
so he just wrote an article published in

1289
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:05,119
scientific american about

1290
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,800
uh dissociative identity and he

1291
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:08,880
referenced a couple of

1292
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:12,480
interesting experimental uh results that

1293
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:12,800
have

1294
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:15,920
come about one was from a woman from

1295
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:20,240
um i want to get this right she was from

1296
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:24,720
holland i believe and she experienced

1297
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,520
uh blind she was blind in one of her

1298
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:30,000
altered dissociative identity states

1299
00:47:37,030 --> 00:47:33,119
under fmri she revealed

1300
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:37,040
that the fmri looked to

1301
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:40,480
neurologists as a blind person

1302
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:43,280
so again we wouldn't have a way of kind

1303
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:43,680
of

1304
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:47,040
explaining that how does that how do

1305
00:47:50,309 --> 00:47:48,559
those and you're aware of other

1306
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:50,319
experiences people who can make

1307
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:52,640
physiological changes to their body that

1308
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,000
are easily readily explainable inside of

1309
00:48:01,109 --> 00:47:58,160
a materialistic kind of paradigm

1310
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:01,119
how does that fit into your model oh i

1311
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:02,640
think it fits very comfortably i mean

1312
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:03,920
when i talk about the unity of

1313
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:06,319
consciousness i'm talking about a kind

1314
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:07,760
of kantian

1315
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,480
synthesizing of experience um

1316
00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:14,319
the kinds of things that i gather

1317
00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:15,680
castrip was talking about there have

1318
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,000
been experiments like that for some time

1319
00:48:21,030 --> 00:48:20,720
right um and and i think he's basically

1320
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:21,040
in

1321
00:48:25,990 --> 00:48:24,480
couple steps further because here's

1322
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:26,000
where it gets

1323
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:28,720
interesting to me you know uh do you

1324
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:29,119
know

1325
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:35,359
no of him so i just interviewed whitley

1326
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:38,079
recently and for people who don't know

1327
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,480
um

1328
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:40,720
whitley strieber is probably one of the

1329
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:41,599
best

1330
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:44,960
known uh

1331
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,359
alien contactees of in history

1332
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:51,760
and uh she he's done it as best-selling

1333
00:48:55,910 --> 00:48:52,960
book communion was

1334
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:55,920
absolutely culture changing in terms of

1335
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:57,200
what it did

1336
00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:59,520
in bringing awareness to that and again

1337
00:49:03,030 --> 00:49:01,119
i i want to put it in the context just

1338
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:03,040
so people i always have to do this

1339
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:05,520
we live now in a post-disclosure world

1340
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:06,480
right so

1341
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:08,960
the new york times has published the

1342
00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:10,240
videos

1343
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,559
cbs news fox news washington post

1344
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:14,000
everyone has now said

1345
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:17,119
yes those are videos released by the

1346
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:18,559
department of defense

1347
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:21,599
those are craft flying

1348
00:49:25,589 --> 00:49:24,720
at g-forces that human beings can't

1349
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:25,599
handle

1350
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:28,720
flying at speeds that we have no even

1351
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:31,680
imagination of how we would achieve and

1352
00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:32,400
i don't know if you

1353
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:35,599
are aware of this but are exhibiting

1354
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:38,720
um this

1355
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:42,240
again these psy phenomena in terms of

1356
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:45,200
uh meeting at a predetermined location

1357
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:46,400
that no one knows

1358
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:48,720
and their you know e.t is showing up

1359
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:49,440
there in these

1360
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:52,559
in the craft and again yeah i have to

1361
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:54,079
remind you this is not like

1362
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:57,680
uh alien hour at midnight

1363
00:50:01,430 --> 00:50:00,319
this is the reports of the department of

1364
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:01,440
defense

1365
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:04,160
as published in the journal of record

1366
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:05,599
the new york times

1367
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:07,760
as i interviewed leslie kane on this

1368
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:10,160
show who was a co-author

1369
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:13,359
of those papers so as a lot of people

1370
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:13,680
have

1371
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:16,079
suspected a long time you know maybe

1372
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,920
part of our interest in this extended

1373
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,160
consciousness has been that

1374
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,800
we have known for a long time that these

1375
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:24,480
non-human intelligences are

1376
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:26,880
operating in that realm but we'll leave

1377
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:27,760
that to

1378
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,440
speculation back to whitley

1379
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:34,079
whitley at i think was like nine years

1380
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:35,040
old

1381
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:38,079
is recruited into

1382
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:41,280
a special gifted children's program

1383
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:43,680
by the way his uh his dad is military

1384
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:44,960
intelligence

1385
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,880
didn't really put all the pieces

1386
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:50,079
together

1387
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:53,040
but he goes to this program and it's an

1388
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:54,720
mkulch it's another mkl's

1389
00:50:59,109 --> 00:50:57,599
program because we now know mk ultra you

1390
00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:59,119
know the us

1391
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:01,359
mind control program which we now know

1392
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:04,400
had like 150 different sub programs

1393
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:06,400
one of which was stargate one of which

1394
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:07,680
was mk

1395
00:51:11,589 --> 00:51:10,240
often where they brought in witches or

1396
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,599
you know other people

1397
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:13,440
i can do occult stuff whatever we can do

1398
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:14,960
to reach that extended consciousness

1399
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:15,760
realm

1400
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:18,720
but what whitney's claim is and i can

1401
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:19,680
give you two or three

1402
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:22,000
other interviews that do say the exact

1403
00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:23,119
same thing

1404
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:28,160
and we have the the is that ritual abuse

1405
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:29,920
there's a relationship between ritual

1406
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:32,079
abuse and the propensity to have a

1407
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:33,599
dissociative identity disorder

1408
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:35,920
that's given that's in the literature so

1409
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:37,280
what whitley says

1410
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:38,960
is that that's what they were trying to

1411
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,760
do so as a kid they were putting these

1412
00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:43,359
abusing these kids like they abused

1413
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:45,520
whitley and trying to crack them

1414
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,880
open in a way to create disassociative

1415
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:50,240
identity disorder

1416
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:52,880
in order to weaponize it in order to

1417
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:53,920
exploit it

1418
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:57,119
in some way that we don't fully

1419
00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:58,400
understand

1420
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:01,920
but we have some ideas of how and why

1421
00:52:05,109 --> 00:52:03,200
they may want to do that

1422
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,119
that's a lot that i kind of put on the

1423
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:07,440
table do you

1424
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,640
buy into any of that well i know that

1425
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:12,640
colin ross has been writing about this

1426
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:13,359
for

1427
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:16,960
quite some time and i respect colin

1428
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:18,640
i can't say i've studied this in the

1429
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:20,079
kind of depth that i've studied things

1430
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:21,920
that i go on record about but i

1431
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:23,920
i think there's something worth sinking

1432
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:25,680
one's teeth into here

1433
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:28,640
so i don't find it incredible at all

1434
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:29,520
fair enough

1435
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:32,000
what do you feel like saying about the

1436
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:32,880
potential

1437
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:35,520
that they're in these realms there are

1438
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:36,960
these

1439
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:39,520
other forces that we have to consider in

1440
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:41,920
a more authentic way

1441
00:52:45,829 --> 00:52:43,520
well there's so many realms we don't

1442
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:45,839
understand we don't understand prodigies

1443
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:47,280
and savants

1444
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:49,040
i mean i find savants particularly

1445
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:50,880
interesting how somebody who's

1446
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,960
[\h__\h] until he sits down to play the

1447
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:54,079
piano

1448
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:56,960
can operate or how calendar savants can

1449
00:52:59,109 --> 00:52:57,520
factor

1450
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:59,119
any number you give them but can't add

1451
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:00,559
the change in their pocket

1452
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:02,720
so they've got deficits cognitive

1453
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:03,599
deficits

1454
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:05,359
that would seem to rule out their

1455
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,440
extraordinary abilities

1456
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,440
so i think there's a lot we don't

1457
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,119
understand about

1458
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,200
the extent of our mental capacities and

1459
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:15,119
what could be unleashed in dissociative

1460
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:15,920
contexts

1461
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:21,119
you know how people can suddenly find

1462
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:22,880
themselves much stronger than they would

1463
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:24,480
ordinarily be

1464
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:27,200
there's a lot we don't know and an

1465
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:28,000
appalling lack

1466
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:32,240
of curiosity so angels and demons steve

1467
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:34,720
i'm not sure about that um i'm

1468
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:36,400
particularly interested in transplant

1469
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:37,599
cases

1470
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:42,240
and which to me looks like uh departed

1471
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:43,920
spirits hovering around their vital

1472
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:45,520
organs

1473
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,359
so as we go forward take a big step back

1474
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:51,599
you've been in the field of if we can

1475
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:53,839
still say parapsychology is a field and

1476
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:55,920
it is i kind of came down pretty hard on

1477
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:57,760
it just kind of

1478
00:54:01,829 --> 00:54:00,480
elicit some kind of reaction where do

1479
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:01,839
you think we're headed

1480
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:05,119
in the next 10 20 years what kind of

1481
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:07,599
progress can we make

1482
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:10,400
along the lines that you and some of

1483
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,760
your colleagues have been pursuing

1484
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:15,359
well if they go along the lines i've

1485
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:17,200
been pursuing we'd get the hell out of

1486
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:18,160
the lab and start

1487
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:20,079
looking for exceptional subjects and try

1488
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:22,839
to get a feel for the natural history of

1489
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:26,640
psy but if you want to know where i

1490
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:28,640
think we're actually going

1491
00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:30,400
i think that we'll be stuck in the same

1492
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:32,559
rut that we've been in for the past 120

1493
00:54:36,150 --> 00:54:34,559
30 years

1494
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:36,160
and one of the reasons is that new

1495
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:38,160
people come into the field all the time

1496
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:40,480
with no background in the rich

1497
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:41,359
literature

1498
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:43,680
just as i did you know i had to find out

1499
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:45,280
after writing a book on the experimental

1500
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:46,559
evidence that there was much better

1501
00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:47,839
evidence

1502
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:51,040
and it's not as if there's

1503
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:53,680
a widely disseminated curriculum in

1504
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:55,839
parapsychology that people can

1505
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:58,559
progress through before they actually

1506
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:00,720
start doing research in the field

1507
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,319
and try to reinvent the wheel it happens

1508
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:06,960
over and over every young generation

1509
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,920
of parapsychological researchers commits

1510
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:11,760
the same mistakes that their forebears

1511
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:12,400
did

1512
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:16,480
well folks our guest again has been the

1513
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,559
extraordinary dr stephen browdy

1514
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,960
check out his latest book he's mentioned

1515
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:24,480
some of his other books

1516
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:27,280
the latest is dangerous pursuits find it

1517
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:29,760
on amazon again it's just 10 bucks

1518
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:31,280
but all his other books which you can

1519
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:33,760
find on his website you can easily

1520
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:41,440
google him s-t-e-p-h-e-n-b-r-a-u-d-e

1521
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,000
and uh excellent website all his former

1522
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:48,400
books and all that many great articles

1523
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:49,760
just

1524
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:52,640
a real real uh i don't know i don't like

1525
00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:53,040
to say

1526
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:55,520
giant that sounds kind of hokey but such

1527
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:56,799
a significant

1528
00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:59,839
person in this field and in science in

1529
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:00,480
general

1530
00:56:04,390 --> 00:56:02,559
steve thank you so so much for joining

1531
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,400
me it's been an absolute

1532
00:56:08,789 --> 00:56:06,559
pleasure thank you for having me it's

1533
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,799
good to see you again

1534
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:10,480
thanks again to dr stephen browning for

1535
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:12,480
joining me today on skeptico the one

1536
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,119
question

1537
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:15,280
i'd have to tee up from this interview

1538
00:56:21,390 --> 00:56:18,400
kind of an inside baseball question

1539
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:21,400
what do you think the future is for

1540
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:23,119
parapsychology

1541
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:25,520
have they sufficiently backwatered it

1542
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:28,799
into insignificance

1543
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:32,400
or is it prime for a resurgence

1544
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:33,839
let me know your thoughts of course best

1545
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:36,240
place do it skeptical forum

1546
00:56:41,349 --> 00:56:39,280
check it out let me hear from you

1547
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:41,359
good shows good shows good shows coming